they proved during the 2011 debt ceiling fight, the kids that is, that they don't care. they don't give a damn about what happens to the economy, both domestically and globally, if they didn't raise the debt ceiling. so what you have happening now is president's looking at those folks and saying, okay, you want to shut down the government, you don't want to the fund the government? fine. i've been here before. you guys do that. >> good luck with that. >> but when it comes to the debt ceiling, there was a time when the leadership could go, the grown-ups could go to the kid and say, this is one thing you cannot do. boehner can't do it. he proved that in 2011. mcconnell can't do it because he's running scared, literally, for re-election. so this middle ground that we're talking about happening within the gop on this issue, i will believe that there's a middle ground when i actually see it. >> and what we have is a distinction between republicans who are actually interested in being part of government and republicans who have no interest in governing whatsoever. >> meanwhile